The art of attraction isn't just about colour or creed, it's about chemistry and a whole bunch of other things. Swirling author Christelyn Karazon discusses.
So... What Do Black Men REALLY Think About Black Women Dating Interracially?
I know some of the fans here are probably saying, “Who cares?” You may not, but I guarantee you that there are many, many, MANY black women who read this blog still incredibly concerned about what black men think about the possibility of them dating white guys.
The comment below came up on our Facebook fan page, made by one of the few openly supportive black men on the page, named Steven. I’ve got to say, I respect his candidness.
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"Black men feel it’s ok for them to swirl and not black women because we are a bunch of hypocritical chauvinist pigs/dogs. Like ALL mean of ALL races, we all feel we can be as free as we want but the woman must stay home reserve and confine herself & standby for us. And after we have sowed all our oats you women should be there waiting for us no matter what. Oh, and if we want, hell we can just leave you for someone else in spite of all your sacrifices and unwavering loyalty.
If you don’t do this and develop a mind of your own and start opening up all your dating options, then you’re a bed wench. That’s pretty much it in a nutshell. It is a crazy and sickening mentality but many of us men actually think that way. And we see nothing wrong with it. Does this mentality sound familiar to you? What other crazy group of people actually think like this?
That’s right you guessed it, racist white men is the correct answer. Many of us black men have become the very thing we despise the most. Not all of us, but many."
I have to say, in the societies where chauvinism is allowed to thrive–India and tons of Arab countries–the idea that women have agency is met with mockery, threats, and violence. White men used to be the worst offenders of this, “I can do it, but you, little woman can not” until their women rose up collectively to fight for change.
What are your thoughts on all this?
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71 responses to "So... What Do Black Men REALLY Think About Black Women Dating Interracially?"
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MrBo12 says:Posted: 06 May 22I read all of you all comments . At the end of the days. Be happy for your choice. Black person will never understand the struggles of a White person. And vice verses. But Black women stop bashing black men. Black men stop bashing Black women. Not all Black women is on government Support. Not all Black men is unemployed. Some of you all watch to much Social Media. White people have their own issues. At the end of the day . Please do not disrespect people past experience.
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Bellabee03Im says:Posted: 30 Jul 21Date, like, hookup or marry whom you please! No one else's opinion matters. No one owes anyone anything for choosing to live their lives according to their own wishes. It's called: freewill! Given to all of God! Be thankful! Enjoy it! And just be happy!
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Heartsy says:Posted: 12 Nov 18I answer to God; my parents and my children no one else
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Ch3rryme says:Posted: 09 Mar 18I have dated outside my race since i was 14 yrs old I am 49 now. I have biracial children and grandchildren. I love my children and grandchildren dearly. I have noticed that not only black men but black women and white men and women have problems with black women period not just in dating outside the race but interacting period.. In being fair its not all black men and women or white men in women but most.I had a best friend ( rest in peace ) who was killed in a car accident and my whole world almost fell apart. Yes he was white. But we was just friends nothing more.My oldest daughter and her dad missed out on a relationship during her childhood because of racism. they are now spending time together yay. but all time wasted such sadness that could have been avoided . However i dated a polish guy for a few years the relationship with him and i and some family was good for the most part .But there was times when he was invited places i could not go with him and i waited for him to stand up and say if she is not welcome i choose not to attend either never happened . But i knew he loved me as i him. why it ended i got tired of the family functions when i was joke of the conversation and i had a tragedy in my family and chose to stay closer to my family. now he and i still talk on the phone from time to time we are still friends. but after 6 years i am ready to have a partner in my life again. I met a guy who is white and he claim he is in love with me well was and things was going well as long as we snuck around. he up and left for 6 months no explanation and when he came back it was more of the same nonsense oh it was his family his friends wouldn't approve and i ask all these questions up front so now i am back looking for my life partner not giving up . Yes i have dated black men to . They are mostly self centered oh why would you want a white man you forget about your ancestors . No i have not and I am not my ancestors and you are doing to me what men have done to my ancestors so the only difference is knowing what they went through how do you justify you doing that to me . I think people should love who they want to love and it is no different than a black man with a white woman. I do not have a problem with it and i don't frown on it i appreciate a man treating any woman like a queen. one day i will find that man who will openly treat me as his queen not just behind closed doors either. until then may God continue to bless those who put forth the effort to live life together regardless of what someone else thinks or believes. At the end of the day we are all human and if you do not like it you don;t have to join me for milk and cookies simply put God Bless happy swirling .
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Browneet says:Posted: 19 Jan 18i do not care what Bm or any race thinks...im attracted to wm and i have dated a few but that dont make them bad race..but this i say back in the day all you i used to see is bm with ww, i didnt care this is a free world but when a sista these days start dating or married with wm they have always questioning and or have nothing good to say about bw with wm..and or its always go back to how wm are using bw for slaves or the remarks will be about slavery/racism...when i was born and got to an age to have my birth certificate i have never seen on my birth certificate that you were born to date or married your race...who cares..for the record all men in all races are not bad...but again im not attracted to my own race..and yes i have been with my own race..im just not attracted to my own race...everyone is entitle to their own opinion...but haha if i can date a foriegn caucausin that my busy as well...posted by essence
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BigDonald says:Posted: 28 Jun 19Sista, do whatever makes you happy! Me myself, as a black man, i always been attracted to whites and other nationalities! But i do have standards when it comes to sistas!
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luvgluve says:Posted: 12 Jan 18
Depends on who you are and what the family value system is:love should conquer,but families wanting heritage only,should not engage in mixed marriages!
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augustabj says:Posted: 07 Dec 17I think it's great, about forty years ago I could remember black women complaining about all of the black men being taken by white women, which was not true. I said at that time maybe black women should start expanding their preferences on dating. Well today i am glad to see that a lot of black women here in Georgia especially is seeking interracial dating. After all everyone has the right to seek who they want to spend the remaining of their life with.
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Pleezu2 says:Posted: 02 Dec 17Hi Y'all. As can be expected, lots of views from across the spectrum of IR activity. Some great appreciation shown from several here. Javan094 demonstrates the willingness to step out of the so-called 'safety net' of own race, to call "foul" as he sees it. IMHO, this is the kind of thinking that is required, when exploring new ground in relationships generally. Yes, one is certainly going to but heads with the intolerant, bigoted racists who wage war on anyone who DARES to venture beyond the mind control of un-evaluated upbringing. But that's progress and that's also evolution to broaden our ability in understanding and appreciating where 'the other' is coming from -- not so?? I personally have learned sooooo much from the experience of diverse views being aired on this site -- BEYOND Black and White! It has helped me enormously in my own relationship, to have the privilege of 'walking a mile in your shoes' (your Shoe-niverse!) Hope you find love, fulfillment and happiness ahead! ML, Calvin.
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Javan094 says:Posted: 25 Nov 17I'm a Black man and I do happen to think that out of Black / White Interracial unions, the White man / Black woman unions have the Greater chance for success because of Traditional American Cultural Relationships. This may over time make for some difficulty for non-traditional White woman / Black man relationships. Respectively, White men / Black women in Traditional same race relationships (Generally, Speaking) have seemed to put their opposite genders on relationship pedestals. I think that this cultural reality will be, generally, a problem over time for Black men / White women relationships. I.E. White men / Black women seem to have the ability to love their partners beyond their own egos, Perhaps, in any relationship that they might be involved in relationships-wise. Black men / White women, again, Generally Speaking; may not be able to get beyond this test.
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MonaLisa04 says:Posted: 28 Nov 17
Interesting!... I think both Man/Woman (no matter what color) must walk into a relationship with a clear mind.. and leave your past in the past.. Be open and willingly to accept each other.. Most importantly, love him/her for who they are...
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Pleezu2 says:Posted: 02 Dec 17
Absolutely, MonaLisa04! Just a small problem, though -- what to do about those pesky little other things cluttering up the mind ?? -- You know -- like starstruck, weak-at-the-knees, love-at-first-sight, etc? LOL - Calvin.
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NaturalL33M3 says:Posted: 24 Nov 17I choose not to restrict myself to any particular race. That’s what I choose to do with my life. I happened to go on a date with an African American man a few weeks back and I regret it to this day. He could not let it go... “How you gonna give a white man all of THAT?” “He don’t know what to do with it.” “How can you date white men, with all that’s going on right now?” This guy was a disrespectful clown. The worst part about it, he dated nothing but Caucasian women for the last three yrs, prior to going out with me.
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MonaLisa04 says:Posted: 26 Nov 17
The same thing happened to me about a week ago... smh #disrepectfulclown
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Starr83 says:Posted: 23 Nov 17I see all the bitter, angry father-less Black men chimes in with their lies.
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blackbelle01 says:Posted: 25 Nov 17
I see all the bitter, angry father-less Black men chimes in with their lies. So true. I have said this over and over again that most BM feel like they can date out of their race but do not want BW to do so. I do not care what they think. I even had a BM on this very site send me an message and asked me why I was dating WM. I informed him that this is an IR site and I am open to dating men not just a race. I then asked him why was he here because he obviously was interested in dating women that were outside of his race also and of course I never heard a response back from him. Most not all but most BM are so hypocritical when it comes to IR dating/marriage
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Ruth116 says:Posted: 12 Apr 21That's how it often is, BM's who date/marry WF's, but have a fit over BW dating/marrying WM's. That loser has some nerve and needs to get a life! You date WM's because YOU CAN and need no one's permission nor need to explain why. Blessings on your quest!
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Annab2b says:Posted: 21 Nov 17
I get the looks from all different directions. I could be out with a wm coworker or a friend from online at a bar and I get the nasty looks from all. I think people are not over the stigmatism yet. I don’t care anymore. I’m having a good time relating to someone that has the same interest as myself. No I’m not dating just to be your concubine or lady in distress. I really want a friendship first before we even think about anything sexual or romantic.
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Ruth116 says:Posted: 23 Apr
Don't let anyone rain on your parade when you're out with your boo, enjoying each other's company Some of them are probably jealous and are lashing out, but that's their problem.
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mr39romantic says:Posted: 17 Nov 17I am a white guy thats going to start dating interracially cause i am tired of white immature younger girls in there 40s down ward that treats me horribly by using taking advantage of me etc. I just want to find and meet the woman of my dreams still before i hit 60. I just finally want a real woman regardless of color race etc as long as she treats loves respects appreciates me for being a real great true gentleman I careless about size age etc from the woman as long as she has high morals values like I have.
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mine4life says:Posted: 20 Nov 17
Respect is mutual and we receive what we put out. Like I’ve always told myself,life is too short to waste around. If I find love, color, size, race will not be a hindrance that’s for sure. Good luck on your search.
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Sponono11 says:Posted: 02 Dec 17
Wow, I'm interested! I'm also looking for a white man to be in love with. I'm tired of black men pretending to love me for a short time, only to go out with another woman and ignoring me. Please I'm serious, would love to be with a man that has high moral values too. I have high values too dear. Please contact me, I'm really serious. I'm full of love to give to a good man, am very faithful and honest.
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Sugar3Spice says:Posted: 05 Dec 17
Interesting you would wait until nearly 60 to give interracial dating a chance. Sometimes it's the quality of mate, or lack thereof, a person goes after and it has little to do with race. I think people need to remember that when they open themselves to interracial dating. Expanding your options is wonderful, but unless you seek an individual of quality your experiences will continue to be the same.
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BeachyB says:Posted: 21 Apr 21
mr39romantic .... sorry to read about your heartache. My mama used to say every pot has it's lid. Maybe I am your lid. In Nokomis.
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Hypnotic4U says:Posted: 16 Nov 17
Quite honestly most I'm sure of us professional black men don't care , as most black woman have emotional issues , too much baggage and hated there father's for a one reason or another when growing up ( abandoment, no childsupport, etc) we prefer the Jeffrey Dahmer's an ted bundy types on here take all that unecessary drama off our hands after all we'really also on here for our Lil sexy barbie dolls, an u know what they say, once ya go black, you guys will never really had barbie anymore sexually...lol
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Starr83 says:Posted: 23 Nov 17
Funny you use Jeffrey as an example. He was a white man who liked colorstruck Black men. You’re a simpleton.
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blackbelle01 says:Posted: 25 Nov 17
Wow Hypnotic 4U- So now BW have emotional issues. How would you like it if a BW would post that most BM have emotional issues, are unemployed and make bad fathers.
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Ruth116 says:Posted: 12 Apr 21
I doubt seriously if Hypnotic 4U would appreciate anyone saying the same things he said about BW if it had to do with his Mom. H4U, I'm not putting down your Mom, but you ought to think about the negative things you say about other women if you don't want them directed at your Mom.
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morena357 says:Posted: 03 Dec 17
No, what I am seeing is Black men like you are insecure as Black women today earn more, own homes, acquire education, and have higher standards. We aren't settling for less anymore. When you see Black women with White men, insecurities enrage you as you are unable to measure up. Stop making excuses and seek happiness with whoever you desire. Black women don't care. :-)
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Mosiah7 says:Posted: 12 Nov 17They always say "We don't care what they think" but constantly talk about it all the time. I say date whoever you're attracted to but do not blame the opposite gender within your race and make it seem like they're the reason you are doing it. I am a black man who prefers interracial dating and I do it because I am more attracted to women of other races. It is not because I hate black women. The main problem I see with the comments here is how certain people are using this topic to take shots at others out of bitterness. You've got several white guys blatantly accusing the majority of black men to be thugs, ghetto, or not being gentlemen thinking they are earning brownie points with black women and there are a lot of "sistas" cosigning and agreeing with these assertions. The old "I am not racist but...." comments. Contrary to popular belief there are plenty of black male gentlemen who open doors for women and do not abuse them. And despite what these people are saying here, not every black person lives in a ghetto and not every white person is a knight in shining armor. As a black man I have endured as much or more verbal abuse and stares for dating interracial as white men or black women have. In fact, it was not that long ago that we could be killed or prohibited from certain avenues in life just because of my black skin. And while people can't do the same things they did in the past to us, that mentality is still there. But attractions cannot be controlled. If you are a black woman who is into white men, then own it. Do not blame black men as the reason you like cream in your coffee. And I will not blame black women as the reason why I like to mix my chocolate with a some vanilla or butter pecan.
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Pleezu2 says:Posted: 11 Nov 17
What a Godsend this product/mission/purpose of Christelyn turned out to be!!!!!!!!!! Is this a mere platform -- or a PLATFORM?? A big shout out to all the contributors who make their issues/feelings heard. I feel all the richer for being privileged to step into your "shoe-niverse" (walk a mile in YOUR shoes!) How else may I come to understand just where you're coming from? - UNDERSTANDING clarifies love - and can wash away the hurt, too. Thank you all -- especially Christelyn. ML, Calvin.
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bobwire_04 says:Posted: 08 Nov 17Im a white guy that dates only blk women for the past dozen yrs or more ; and yes we have and show respect to the blk women we date. The blk man with the ghetto mentality n disposition can't figure that out ; or prefers not to
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TI300 says:Posted: 08 Nov 17This is a crop of bs to the core and entirely from a woman’s perspective for women. I noticed people talking about stares coming from black men which I have yet to see. When I bring a white woman out on a date, some black woman call me a sellout and traitor because I should be dating a woman that looks like my mother, some white men say she’s a worthless w**** and bm need to stick with their own kind!! Double standards all over the place. BW pass us over for thugs, have a bunch of kids, when a successful BM marries interracially, he’s a sellout!! These double standards. That opening comment is some female feel good bs!!
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3up3down92 says:Posted: 09 Nov 17
There is a lot of merit to what you have to say. You have the right to date whoever you want to and it does not mean you are selling anyone out. I have dated many black women and have never had a black dude give me a hard time. You know who gives me the hard time? White women. It's like the kiss of death and they spread the word around about you big time. Some people need to grow up. Who the hell cares if someone wants to date outside of their race?
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mine4life says:Posted: 20 Nov 17
Exactly! A person should be open to date whoever they choose to without worrying what society says or thinks. At the end of the day, their opinion don’t count
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blackbelle01 says:Posted: 05 Nov 17
I really don't care what BM think. I date who I want to date but I do notice that BM always seem to have something negative to say when a BW dates or marries Interracially especially with a WM. I was out with my bf who just happened to be white and a BM who was involved in an IR relationship himself actually came up to me and gave me and ask me what was I doing dating a White guy. The double standards and hypocritical attitudes of some BM are astounding
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eltarheel says:Posted: 03 Nov 17I think it's a double standard, period. A white man can date whoever he wants and from my view point no one seems to have a problem with it. But a black man dates a white woman or has a preference like myself then there's a problem... There's always a problem, especially with the sistas. All the Oprahs, Janets, Beyonces', Halles, Gabrielles can date, marry whoever there want has long as they leave me alone and let me date whoever I want. No one wants to hear what a Black man has to say despite your question, or a white woman for that matter. I've seen a black woman at my church bring a white dude to church and no one wants say anything... And they better not. But if I bring a white woman to church, I get the scoffs, sucking of teeth and the 'humpfs' all the time. 'Why did you bring here?' or 'What's the matter, you too good for a sista?' Even gay black dudes can date white guys nowadays no sees to have a problem with it. Lol. Let me date who I want, just like you can date who you want. Because like I stated before, I think it's a double standard, period, from both black woman and white men.
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eltarheel says:Posted: 03 Nov 17
I think it's a double standard, period. A white man can date who ever he wants and from my view point no one seems to have a problem with it. But a black man dates a white woman or has a preference like myself then there's a problem... There's always a problem, especially sistas. All the Oprahs, Janets, Beyonces', Halles, Gabrielles can date, marry whoever there want has long as they leave me alone and let me date whoever I want. No one wants to hear what a Black man has to say despite your question, or a white woman for that matter. I've seen a black woman at my church bring a white dude to church and no one wants say anything... And they better not. But if I bring a white woman to church, I get the scoffs, sucking of teeth and the 'humpfs' all the time. 'Why did you bring here?' or 'What's the matter, you to good for a sista?' Lol. Let me date who I want, just like you can date who you want. Because like I stated before, I think it's a double standard, period, from both black woman and white men.
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poppy0815 says:Posted: 04 Nov 17I hate to disagree with you, but that’s BS! That’s while we’re on here! The correct reference would be “some” on both sides!
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poppy0815 says:Posted: 04 Nov 17
Again your statements go to your own racist way of thinking. We are ALL on here, to date who we want. If someone has a problem with who you date, who cares?! Do what you want, but don’t make it about racist white men and stereotypical black women!
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poppy0815 says:Posted: 04 Nov 17
My daughters have dated black men, I never blinked an eye. They were as welcome in my home as any other man they ever dated. Like I said, racism is taught and learned! No one is born that way. Last I checked, both Oprah and Beyonce’ were with Black men, so how does that play into argument? There’s and old proverb, that I like to live by.....”be the change you want to see”! That’s why I’m writing back to you, to encourage you to do that! Peace!
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augustabj says:Posted: 07 Dec 17
Poppy0815, I agree with you. Racism is taught and learned. No one is born with hate, or prejudice. Peace brother, stay strong.
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blackbelle01 says:Posted: 05 Nov 17
You have got to be kidding. Most people are use to seeing BM with WW and I know of very few BW that actually care about BM dating WW. Now let a BW date/marry a WM and she is called everything in the book from a bed wench to a sell out and everything inbetween.
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Ch3rryme says:Posted: 09 Mar 18
I know i was told no black man would ever want me because i was damage goods from having a child with a white man. It didn't deter me not one bit . I have been out on a date and actually had a stranger slap my shoulder because i was having dinner with a white man and it was a black woman,I also had white women and black men roll eyes and frown up.It no longer make me mad it makes me stronger and go harder for my interest. I tried to get to know a black man who was only interested in sex to the point he tried to force his self on me and other things.then called me all kind of degrading names because i wouldn't sleep with him . I embrace life and friendship. I will not blame every black man or white man or black woman or man for past relationships but will ask all the questions i need to for i think you should too.I will be at peace. Good luck in your journey.
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poppy0815 says:Posted: 01 Nov 17
And going back to the original response! Like I said, he makes it about racism, when in fact it is! But it is “he” that is racist, not “we”! “Many of is (black men) have become the thing we dispise the most “racist white men”! I have been dating black women all my life, and the only ones, I have EVER seen, that have a problem with it, are black men! There are bad dudes out there on all sides, black, white, Asian, hispanic, etc. but like someone else posted on here, it’s all about how you were raised! No one is born a racist, it’s taught!
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IMIRI says:Posted: 07 Nov 17
I agree there are good and bad in every race. Everyone have an opinion, who cares, My motto is MIND YOUR BUSINESS....The heart wants what the heart wants. God is love, As humans we all need it. That is how we were made by the Creator. Who we choose to love is our business, no one else, If someone don't like it, to H Double Hockey Sticks with ya. MIND YOUR BUSINESS.....LOL
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SKIandSKY262 says:Posted: 01 Nov 17
When I lived in Charlotte, NC I was close friends with a black female and we did a lot of things together, including going out to eat. I never got a mean look from a white female but I noticed a lot of mean looks from black men, every one of them out with their families. I noticed other white men out with black women getting the same treatment. I believe white men of any worth have policed racism out of their lives (and purged racist friends) but in the black community, racism is alive and encouraged. If you are a white male and you are out with a black female, you had better be on your guard for attacks by black males. The media won't report it, but it's fairly common.
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RGlam says:Posted: 16 Nov 17
Very thoughtful, value-added response. Thanks!
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Ch3rryme says:Posted: 09 Mar 18
That is NC not every black male will attack you that is stereo typing the black man . I am living in Oklahoma and I have been called a Nigger more since being here than i have heard the word in the movie roots. especially when it found out that i was dating outside my race.usually from a older white man who would throw his money at me when i would check him out at the register i was working .Or white women would stand in line saying that's the nigger girl who was with the white man. or the Oklahoma State police would pull us over and ask him how do you know her.as If he just picked me up off the street. So i have seen it from all 4 sides. I dated a biker who begged for a relationship only to fall under pressure. I may never meet a truly mature man and settle down with but i'm not going to quit looking and being open to the possibilities. at the end of the day i and i alone is responsible for my own happiness.
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Malcomb says:Posted: 01 Nov 17As a white guy raised in the South, I've seen the same attitudes from white guys toward white women who date black guys! I've heard white guys say "she's not worth dating" because she has been with a black guy. Unfortunately, this attitude often goes both ways!
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Mosiah7 says:Posted: 04 Nov 17
Thank you for your honesty, Malcomb. The attitude you describe is especially prevalent on social media where people can hide behind a keyboard and make those kinds of remarks.
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poppy0815 says:Posted: 31 Oct 17
Of course, he had to make it about racist white men. Like he said, we are NOT all racist, and "white" men are not the only ones that ARE racist! The truth is, from what I have been told by the black women that I have dated, is Black Men treat them, just as he described, like s***! However, that is not how we (white men) treat our women, whether they be black, white, purple or green! Let's stick to the facts here, (1) black women want to be treated with respect, as do ALL women, and ALL people. (2) Black men treat their women like s***, (whether they be black or white)! (3) Not ALL black minor white men, quantify with the 2 facts that I mentioned, but for the most part, it's truth. When I go out with a woman, black, white, or whatever, I believe in chivalry. I open the door for her (car and building). I walk next to traffic, keeping her to the left, and away from traffic, and the left, is the side of "HONOR". I let her order first, I ask her, her opinions and ideas. When I see black men out with ANY women, they open the door, step in, and let the door hit their lady in the face! So, I call BS on this! This dude may very well be a pig/ dog, and so may A LOT of others, but "we" are NOT all the same! Lastly, by his way of thinking, it would be oak, if a black woman wanted to date a black man, but only because black men are pigs/ dogs, would a black woman EVER want to be with a white man......again BS! Treat a woman with respect, dignity, be honest with her, don't cheat on her, keep a job, don't screw everything that walks, and she will be with you, no matter what color your skin is. Do all the above, and she will get as far away from you, as she can, and YOU'LL deserve her leaving you!
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RGlam says:Posted: 16 Nov 17
And there it is! Thanks, Poppy, for your input. It’s nice to know that someone “gets” it.
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CHEN2018 says:Posted: 17 Aug 18
Iam African and i embrace these statements reservedly. They talk to my innerself.
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Mona67 says:Posted: 31 Oct 17
Nope, I don't care, because I like many of my sisters, am available and if they wanted to date me they could have asked, you snooze you loose. Standby, HA! majority want to hookup not date, want to live together, not marry Tell me I'm wrong if you want but how many of your friends are happily married, not living together and/or dating not hooked-up?
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Ruth116 says:Posted: 12 Apr 21
You go girl, I'm on the same page as you; down with hooking up and shacking up! If I'm not good enough to be someone's wife, there's the door. They best be sure that the door doesn't hit them where the dog should have bit them!
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Pleezu2 says:Posted: 31 Oct 17
Hi Christelyn, hope you doing good! Well here's my view. -- BM "think" the way THEY WERE RAISED to think! -- Regardless of WHO Bw date! It's Clear which way Steven was raised, so good for him! -- It's all back to basic behavior, and who had the most influence on one's growing up. If we REALLY look -- we SEE . If we don't -- we fall into the trap of imagining what we see!! -- that can lead to the kind of messed up "thunking" you deal with on an all to regular basis! Thanks again for your inspirational energy. It's always contagious! ML, Calvin.
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